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Old 09-22-2017, 06:59 AM   #41
Smok1
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Sorry one more question, so if i choose to co-inoculate, i still crush my grapes and add kmeta to 50ppm? Wait 24 hours, pitch yeast, then pitch mlf? Or do i need to skip the so2 if i inoculate same time as yeast?

 
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:02 AM   #42
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I wouldn't skip the k-meta, the addition will help prevent any wild yeast becoming active.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:04 AM   #43
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Dude, your asking some good questions. Seems like every one is gray, with many discussions had in the past.
But yes, they say adding up to 50ppm at crush is fine to protect, kill wild yeast, yet still not inhibit MLF. Different strains are more so2 tolerant than others. I've been adding none at all, co-inoculating, and it might sound crazy but I'm 12 days in and it's already arguably finished.
But I think that was my last "no so2 addition" ever. It's Nerve racking. My juice bucket took off before I even touched it, and they both finished short of being fully dry.
I don't blame the co-inoculation tho. I blame the no so2 indirectly. Which rushed me to add enzymes and get started instead of properly adjusting ph and dialing the must in 1st.
If I had a "do-over" I'd add maybe 25-30 ppm, and do my adjustments and still co-inoculate 24-48 hrs after yeast. I think my high ph stressed the AF.
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac60 View Post
Thanks 4score, What type do you recommend for Zins and Cabs
CH16 and VP41 are ones we've used for those. Also Enoferm Beta.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:33 AM   #45
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I do about 45 different lots of red each year and have had all kinds of MLF results using CH16 bacteria and various yeasts. I've always added bacteria after primary and sometimes it takes off really well and is finished in a week or two. Sometimes it takes two months. Sometimes it never takes off and I have to heat up the barrels and reinoculate. At the end of the day the results have always been fine, although there's always better barrels than others. Hard to pin it on MLF though.

This year I am going to do a lot of 1/2 regular (post-primary) bacteria inoculation, and 1/2 co-fermentation. I'm hoping I can get quicker, smoother MLFs out of the co-fermentations. I'm in the process of checking my yeasts for compatibility. I'll be sure to post the results later in the season.
Well here are the early results on the side by side, early bacterial inoculation for MLF. These wines have all been pressed and are in the barrel. No sulfur added as neither primary nor secondary fermentations are finished.

Glucose + Fructose (g/100mL)

Walla Walla Merlot no bacteria - 0.003
Walla Walla Merlot early inoculation bacteria - 0.006

Yakima Valley Syrah no bacteria - 0.007
Yakima Valley Syrah early inoculation bacteria - 0.011


Malic acid (g/L)

Walla Walla Merlot no bacteria - 1.061
Walla Walla Merlot early inoculation bacteria - .120

Yakima Valley Syrah no bacteria - 1.335
Yakima Valley Syrah early inoculation bacteria - 0.279


I have three more lots going through the same treatment but the early results are clear. Early MLF inoculation is rad. I have seen no signs of acetic acid production or stank aromas. All yeast and bacterial strains were screened for co-fermentation compatibility beforehand and bacteria was added at about 18 brix. So far I'm sold.

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Old 10-13-2017, 12:18 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeenatron View Post
Well here are the early results on the side by side, early bacterial inoculation for MLF. These wines have all been pressed and are in the barrel. No sulfur added as neither primary nor secondary fermentations are finished.

Glucose + Fructose (g/100mL)

Walla Walla Merlot no bacteria - 0.003
Walla Walla Merlot early inoculation bacteria - 0.006

Yakima Valley Syrah no bacteria - 0.007
Yakima Valley Syrah early inoculation bacteria - 0.011


Malic acid (g/L)

Walla Walla Merlot no bacteria - 1.061
Walla Walla Merlot early inoculation bacteria - .120

Yakima Valley Syrah no bacteria - 1.335
Yakima Valley Syrah early inoculation bacteria - 0.279


I have three more lots going through the same treatment but the early results are clear. Early MLF inoculation is rad. I have seen no signs of acetic acid production or stank aromas. All yeast and bacterial strains were screened for co-fermentation compatibility beforehand and bacteria was added at about 18 brix. So far I'm sold.
Having been inoculating early with great succes, it's nice to see some empirical evidence, thanks for taking the time to provide your numbers.

Although the difference is insignificant, I note that the sugars are just a smidge higher in the co-inoculated batches vs the ones that were not inoculated. It'll be interesting to see if that holds true across your sampling batches...........
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:32 PM   #47
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Yeah true they technically are a hair higher currently but since I fermented and pressed the lots individually it could have been a number of factors. Also all the sugar numbers are so close to bone dry anyway it doesn't really matter. The fact that the early inoculation didn't stall anything was very nice to see. Consider me converted John haha!

 
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeenatron View Post
Yeah true they technically are a hair higher currently but since I fermented and pressed the lots individually it could have been a number of factors. Also all the sugar numbers are so close to bone dry anyway it doesn't really matter. The fact that the early inoculation didn't stall anything was very nice to see. Consider me converted John haha!
Agreed, not significant differences in the sugars, but still interesting, we'll see if it holds up.

Glad your early inoculation trials went well. After a ton of reading before giving it a try, and although some of the more technical aspects were challenging to my engineering (non-biology/chemistry) brain, the positives out weighed the negatives. It seemed that as long as the must numbers were in line, and one uses a good / compatible yeast and mlb, nutrient protocol, they can perform their roles in favorable conditions, and concurrently.

Be watching to see how the rest of your concurrent inoculations go, as well as the sequential ones, please keep us posted.......
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Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM   #49
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Be watching to see how the rest of your concurrent inoculations go, as well as the sequential ones, please keep us posted.......
Yes, this is a very interesting thread. Keep it up guys, learning can be fun!

Thank you @skeenatron for taking the time to post your numbers.
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