RJ Spagnols Unacceptable kit odor in all RJS and WE

Been away and just found this thread...

If I can chime in here..

I have only made 1 kit about 30 years ago that turned out flavorless, thin, and not really drinkable. So, taking the coward's way out, I never returned to kit wine making.

All of my wines are made from fresh whole fruit. I am VERY happy with the results most of the time, but I do not kid myself in thinking that any of my wines could compete with a first growth where the wine is made close to the vineyard that has perfect growing conditions, perfect vines, perfect soil, and made with a staggering equipment, facility, and labor budget. My wines will never be a first growth, but WHAT WINES ARE??

So, anyway, I am cruising along, turning my nose up at kits, then things started to change.

I began to notice a distinct change in the quality of kits and the wines they produce. Where some competitions kept kits and "real fruit" wines in separate categories, I began to notice that, more and more, these categories were being merged.

I have been more and more impressed with kit wines. Many that I have tasted were down right scrumptious! Although some had a kit taste that was overpowering, there were others where the kit taste was nonexistent. I am not even close to being an expert on making wines from kits, but I can attest that I have tasted some great kit wines.

As with my wines, expecting to make a first growth wine at home is a poorly managed expectation. You can not expect to make a first growth wine out of a kit any more than I can expect to make one out of whole fruit.

So What?? This does not mean that the wine is not enjoyable. I do not know of any wine lover that would refuse to drink a good wine simply because it is not first growth caliber.

I guess what I am saying is to keep plugging away. If you do not like the results, go to work on the process or kit you choose. This is how a winemaker "earns his/her bones".

Eventually you will get to something you like. Just as long as there is no Welch's logo on the box, you will be OK. LOL

The answer is simple. Marmite.

http://www.marmite.co.uk/

You love it or you hate it ! As the adverts go. A USA friend tried it and attempted to scrape his tongue off.! Another loves it.

Now 'KT' is exactly the same. The Marmite of the wine world!

Nobody really has a real scientific clue exactly what makes some people taste it or not taste it. It is there. It is a product of the concentration process. I opened yet another bottle, ( never any of those kit additives or tweaks) a year old and that Cypriot/ Greek wine type flavour, taste and smell burst out all over my taste buds. My 'KT' sensitive genes asserted themselves. It is very drinkable and this Barolo style kit red wine, is fine with a strong curry etc. It destroys the 'KT' taste and smell. But is it like any standard commercial wine. No and just for fun again No! I shall repeat the tasting in another years time ( unless i have passed on to the great vineyard in the sky).

So there you all have it.

The answer.


Now to test everybody to see if they like Marmite and can taste 'KT' or not.

I am curious if there are any wine professionals on the board who are ok with kit wine taste. Not that my skills or pallet are any better, but I drink really good wine as a Sommelier and wine lover. Both kits I have made so far have the same distinct taste and smell to them but they are different grapes. I have a Bravado that is fermenting as we speak and I am nervous this will show the same.

My kits are so new that none have been bottled yet, but I have tasted young wine and you can really see the potential that will show later in the bottle, these I'm not so sure.

What flavour, taste and smell would you describe it like. As a matter of interest?

I ask this because I have a theory !!

Most of the comments seem to always allude to a candy flavour for 'KT'. Forget geraniums. That is a well known sorbate problem.

There is a famous flavour used in Kool-aid etc. which gives a fruity candy grape flavour /odor at 25ppm or higher. That substance otherwise known as Methyl anthranilate. This occurs naturally in concord grapes and other vitis labrusca varieties. Hence the concord grape flavour etc.

I would suggest that kits 'generally' ( a guess) are not true varietals, but a mix giving a style of wine. That also the mix will contain the above substance in sufficient ppm to be noticed, because concord grapes are used and or, that the concentration process increases the level. Also the manufacturer of kits can add small amounts of flavour concentrate enhancers to create a type of wine style.

What are the laws on how much of a particular wine kit is due to one type of grape. if it says 100% single variety grape, does that mean 100% by law or is it allowed an added % of other grape juice.

Next we need somebody to run a genetic profile of all the kits and the manufacturers to state exactly what grape juice types are exactly in the box etc. If they know? There is a lot of concentrate on the market that is made to different levels of standard and mixes by the manufacturers.

I think along with my 'marmite' idea we may have a real answer.

Anybody make a concorde kit?

marathon said:

I ask this because I have a theory !!

Most of the comments seem to always allude to a candy flavour for 'KT'. Forget geraniums. That is a well known sorbate problem.

There is a famous flavour used in Kool-aid etc. which gives a fruity candy grape flavour /odor at 25ppm or higher. That substance otherwise known as Methyl anthranilate. This occurs naturally in concord grapes and other vitis labrusca varieties. Hence the concord grape flavour etc.

I would suggest that kits 'generally' (a guess) are not true varietals, but a mix giving a style of wine. That also the mix will contain the above substance in sufficient ppm to be noticed, because concord grapes are used and or, that the concentration process increases the level. Also the manufacturer of kits can add small amounts of flavour concentrate enhancers to create a type of wine style.

What are the laws on how much of a particular wine kit is due to one type of grape. if it says 100% single variety grape, does that mean 100% by law or is it allowed an added % of other grape juice.

Next we need somebody to run a genetic profile of all the kits and the manufacturers to state exactly what grape juice types are exactly in the box etc. If they know? There is a lot of concentrate on the market that is made to different levels of standard and mixes by the manufacturers.

I think along with my 'marmite' idea we may have a real answer.

Anybody make a concorde kit?

Click to expand...

So you are suggesting that KT is actually foxiness from labrusca grapes blended into the kit?

I don't do kits so I'm not familiar with KT, but I've made wine from Catawba and Concord so I think I know "foxy." I'd be surprised if those familiar KT didn't make that connection, but I will be interested to follow this thread.

marathon said:

I ask this because I have a theory !!

Most of the comments seem to always allude to a candy flavour for 'KT'. Forget geraniums. That is a well known sorbate problem.

There is a famous flavour used in Kool-aid etc. which gives a fruity candy grape flavour /odor at 25ppm or higher. That substance otherwise known as Methyl anthranilate. This occurs naturally in concord grapes and other vitis labrusca varieties. Hence the concord grape flavour etc.

I would suggest that kits 'generally' ( a guess) are not true varietals, but a mix giving a style of wine. That also the mix will contain the above substance in sufficient ppm to be noticed, because concord grapes are used and or, that the concentration process increases the level. Also the manufacturer of kits can add small amounts of flavour concentrate enhancers to create a type of wine style.

What are the laws on how much of a particular wine kit is due to one type of grape. if it says 100% single variety grape, does that mean 100% by law or is it allowed an added % of other grape juice.

Next we need somebody to run a genetic profile of all the kits and the manufacturers to state exactly what grape juice types are exactly in the box etc. If they know? There is a lot of concentrate on the market that is made to different levels of standard and mixes by the manufacturers.

I think along with my 'marmite' idea we may have a real answer.

Anybody make a concorde kit?

Click to expand...

Seems like a reasonable hypothesis. I don't know how easy it is to do the type of genetic testing you're suggesting, but it would be a good way of advancing or disproving the idea.

From what I've seen, kit makers hold this kind of information close to the vest. When I was looking at the Mezza Luna red kit, they won't even share which varietals are included. Perhaps it is to avoid having to disclose the full spectrum of what is included.

Stressbaby said:

So you are suggesting that KT is actually foxiness from labrusca grapes blended into the kit?

I don't do kits so I'm not familiar with KT, but I've made wine from Catawba and Concord so I think I know "foxy." I'd be surprised if those familiar KT didn't make that connection, but I will be interested to follow this thread.

Click to expand...

Not the foxiness, but the natural candy flavour of concord

I think there are two separate observations noted throughout this thread. Note that they are not observed by all. But they are: 1) a candy/bubble gum/artificial sweetness and 2) a sour or bitterness noted both on the nose and the flavor profile. I think most would agree that much, if not all, of the bubble gum essence can be linked to sorbate. Not sure about the sour - but that is what I've experienced (at least since I stopped using sorbate). Many posts back, someone asked about a Beaujolais nouveau maybe representing what this flavor profile might be like. But I may try one just to see.

Fortunately, I've never noted the candy/bubble gum side of this. As for the sour or bitterness I don't know if we're talking the same thing, but I describe a 'bite' on my wines that are not sufficiently degassed. Whereas alcohol will give a mild 'warmth/burn/tingle' going down the back of my throat, CO2 causes a bite in the back of the mouth and a slight burn up the back of my throat.

Maybe I'm hypersensitive, but those who have read some of my responses know that I'm obsessive about degassing and it's because of that bite. I'm happy for those who can degass easily, I'm not one of them. That's why I'm constantly trying to eliminate the variables.

I don't want to turn this towards degassing issues, but is the sour/bitterness possibly from excess CO2? I had a bottle of Mosaic Red last night that was still gassy and ruined the wine. But I put a vacuvin on it, shook it, got a half inch of foam, stroked the vacuvin a few more times, and then tasted it and the wine was where it should be with the bite gone. For me the bite overwhelms everything else about the wine.

Sorbate and CO2 perhaps the cause of what's generally described as KT?

marathon said:

Not the foxiness, but the natural candy flavour of concord

Click to expand...

I thought the foxiness was due to methyl anthranilate.

Also, not sure sorbate is responsible for candy/bubble gum. From what I read, this is more commonly associated with methyl anthranilate which is the flavoring in grape Koolaid. Sorbate does seem to impart some sweetness, but when detected is more often described as pineapple or celery.

AZMDTed said:

Fortunately, I've never noted the candy/bubble gum side of this. As for the sour or bitterness I don't know if we're talking the same thing, but I describe a 'bite' on my wines that are not sufficiently degassed. Whereas alcohol will give a mild 'warmth/burn/tingle' going down the back of my throat, CO2 causes a bite in the back of the mouth and a slight burn up the back of my throat.

Maybe I'm hypersensitive, but those who have read some of my responses know that I'm obsessive about degassing and it's because of that bite. I'm happy for those who can degass easily, I'm not one of them. That's why I'm constantly trying to eliminate the variables.

I don't want to turn this towards degassing issues, but is the sour/bitterness possibly from excess CO2? I had a bottle of Mosaic Red last night that was still gassy and ruined the wine. But I put a vacuvin on it, shook it, got a half inch of foam, stroked the vacuvin a few more times, and then tasted it and the wine was where it should be with the bite gone. For me the bite overwhelms everything else about the wine.

Sorbate and CO2 perhaps the cause of what's generally described as KT?

Click to expand...

Hey Ted,

Interesting thought about the CO2. I'd say that isn't my issue. My wines are racked multiple times and bottled using the AI1 and my reds spend 3-4 months in barrels. So I doubt there's any gas left in them.

Boatboy24 said:

Hey Ted,

Interesting thought about the CO2. I'd say that isn't my issue. My wines are racked multiple times and bottled using the AI1 and my reds spend 3-4 months in barrels. So I doubt there's any gas left in them.

Click to expand...

...unless your storage area is cold (under 50F). There's an easy way to test for CO2: take a small sip of the wine in question, and leave it on your tongue for several seconds. If it has CO2, you will feel the bubbles on your tongue as the wine warms up in your mouth.

Just to clarify the geranium flavor and aroma comes from adding sorbates before you have enough sulfites in the wine. Don't add both together. Add your Sulfites first, then wait 12 hours and add the sorbates and you won't get any geranium off flavors.

Alternately just skip the sorbates unless you are backsweetening.

Mortalpawn said:

Just to clarify the geranium flavor and aroma comes from adding sorbates before you have enough sulfites in the wine. Don't add both together. Add your Sulfites first, then wait 12 hours and add the sorbates and you won't get any geranium off flavors.

Alternately just skip the sorbates unless you are backsweetening.

Click to expand...

I don't believe the first part of this statement is correct. Adding sorbate to a wine which under any Mlf is what causes the geranium flavor and aroma. It is perfectly OK to add your sorbate and meta bisulphite at the same time.

The second part of the statement needs some further clarification, also. No need to add sorbate, if your wine is completely dry and you don't plan to backsweeten.

If you don't have enough free sulfite in the wine prior to adding the sorbate you can have malo-lactic bacteria (MLB) attack the sorbates producing the geranium off flavor. The sulfite inhibits them. The problem with adding them together is that the potassium metabisulfate does not instantly create free SO2 in the wine the moment you add it so you run some risk of the sorbates being metabolized by the MLB before enough free sulfite is in the wine to prevent it - resulting in a geranium flavor/aroma that can't be removed.

The simple solution is to add the sulfites first (ideally measure your free sulfites level and pH to get the exact amount needed). Then wait several hours ( usually wait 12 hours to be safe) before adding the sorbates. Sorbates are not needed in every wine - as you point out if the wine is not backsweetened and fully fermented you probably don't need them as the sulfites will be sufficient to stabilize the wine.

I suppose you are technically correct, there is a chance MLB can be present and if your free SO2 isn't high enough... But, in practical application (and per kit all the kit instructions I have seen) they can be safely added at the same time. Let's not forget this is a kit thread, in the kit winemaking section. There is no need to make things harder on folks just starting out than they have to be.

And particularly for someone making first few kits, follow the directions, add everything at the time and in the way the instructions call for. After you have made a few kits and decide to branch out, then consider doing your own thing.

I'm just telling you how to get rid of the "geranium" flavor - if you like your geraniums you can certainly keep your geraniums!

I don't like the flavor which I've found to be a flaw in many kit wines (mentioned often in this thread as well) and there is a simple way to entirely avoid it - add the sulfites first, wait a few hours and then add the sorbates. If I'm going to invest $150 or more and a year or more on a premium kit, I think its worthwhile to take steps to eliminate the problem entirely.

Try and buy a kit that is a 100% pure varietal grape juice from the two main manufacturers. It does not exist. They are all blends and contain grape juice from types you may not have wanted to use

Yeah, but that also goes for a lot of bottles you buy in the store from the US. You only need 75% of the varietal to have it labeled. You buy a cabernet sauvignon, but what is it? 75% cab sauv, 15% this, 7% this and 3% that. If you like it, drink it.