Cold Soaking

During cold soak should inert gas be used to protect the wine from oxygen, or is sulfite and keeping the temperature 55 F and lower enough?

I thought cold soak or I think you mean cold stabalizing, should be done close to or just below freezing. Seems most use kmeta.

I did mean cold soaking, this is when you do not add yeast to the must right away. Instead you leave the must chilled for multiple days (3-5) to get better color extraction and some say a better tasting wine.

I've never heard of that but I'm taking it you are using fresh. I've only done kits so far.
Thanks for the info. I am planning on switching over to fresh this spring and any info I can get is greatly appreciated!

This started out as a Pinot Noir thing, some say there are benefits, while others say that Pinot have thin skins that will break down anyway.

I haven't heard of using gas to protect the wine, but this is the very reason that most wine makers are on the line about the pros and cons, some say that it will provide more and better color; increased and possibly more intense aromatics and flavor elements; finer tannins, less of the harsher, more bitter,astringent seed tannin.
Yet others say is it nonsense and that you are putting your must at risk of spoiling.

Hopefully those that are a bit more experienced making wine from fresh grapes will chime in.

The guys at M&M suggested it and they crush destem thousands of pounds of grapes for clients and store them in buckets for several days at 40 degrees. I think if this really harmed the fruit, they would discourage this practice.

Here is a good read on Cold Soaking. I am not currently making wine from grapes, but who knows what the future holds?

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/coldsoak.htm

I don't go out of the way to cold soak, but have done it a number of times and it does help a bit with color extraction on weak coloring wines and also helps flavors.

As an example: This year I left the Catawba until the vines were frozen and it got cold for a week after. I let the grapes cool overnignt before crushing, crushed the next morning and let them go after sulfiting for 3 days before pitching the yeast. The must stayed cold all that time. I warmed it up just a bit at yeast pitching and let it ferment at 55 degrees. It took 3 weeks to get almost dry before I pressed it. 2 more days of settling and then into the tanks. The color is the best I have gotten yet and the flavors are astounding. Lots of strawberry in the nose and taste with a nice spiciness in there also. This will be a great one.

The only folks I have heard of using cold soak method purposely to obtain the hoped-for positive effects are wineries that have the equipment to cool a large volume of grapes/must and vacuum seal it during the maceration period - in one case, I was told that particular winery let the cold soak proceed for 21 days, under 'ideal' conditions (constant cold temp. and minimal or no O2 exposure).
I have also heard it is typically done with less-than-top-quality grapes to try to improve the sub-par produce into a better final product. The implication being that, if they had better fruit to work with, the cold soak would not be necessary or worth the risk and the extra work.

Bart the important thing to remember is that we all do not always have ideal grapes to work with every year. For you small home winemakers, you can buy kits or source a certain grape, but those of us who depend on our own grapes for wine, we need to learn to make the best from what we have- and I will guarantee you it is not sub-par wine in any way. Pinot is typically a poor coloring wine and can benefit from the extra color extraction. I use the Catawba as an example here in that I can attain a naturally pigmented pink wine using this method and it is one of the top selling wines we have. Other wineries that use conventional methods need to mix in a red wine for color and hope they don't change the flavor profile too badly or they end up with a straw colored wine. Under cold conditions, the wine is really in no danger of oxidation as long as you handle it with proper punchdowns, etc afterwards.

Grapeman, do you finish your catawba on the sweeter side?

Somewhat sweet, but not syrupy like many Finger Lakes wines. I would say similar to a White Zin- in many ways. We can never make enough.

From what I gathered adding inert gas is an extra precaution to protect the juice from unwanted microbes, but usually the consistent cold temps and sulfite are enough to keep them away. And with many things in life, a cold soak is a balance of risk and reward. Thanks everyone for all of the help!!!

grapeman said:

Bart the important thing to remember is that we all do not always have ideal grapes to work with every year. For you small home winemakers, you can buy kits or source a certain grape, but those of us who depend on our own grapes for wine, we need to learn to make the best from what we have- and I will guarantee you it is not sub-par wine in any way. Pinot is typically a poor coloring wine and can benefit from the extra color extraction. I use the Catawba as an example here in that I can attain a naturally pigmented pink wine using this method and it is one of the top selling wines we have. Other wineries that use conventional methods need to mix in a red wine for color and hope they don't change the flavor profile too badly or they end up with a straw colored wine. Under cold conditions, the wine is really in no danger of oxidation as long as you handle it with proper punchdowns, etc afterwards.

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Grapeman,
I would not presume to tell any winery operator how to run their business, and I am sure you have sound and valid reasons (and the right equipment) to do a cold soak. As a non-winery, home-based winemaker/weekend warrior, I was assuming the original poster was more like me than you - lacking the equipment, supplies, time and expertise to properly handle a true or extended cold soak process. And, without knowing if the fruit he had was good or not-so-good, I assumed he was not growing/harvesting his own grapes in late November, but I guess all we know is he making some kind of red grape wine.

Anyway, I could conceive of a building a jerry-rigged set-up where I might be able to cold soak 6 or 12 gallons of must in my bathtub, but it would be very difficult to keep it a constant temperature above 40 (I'm thinking a big ice bath). And filling a primary fermenter of some type with an inert gas and keeping that airtight would be even harder. So, without the right facilities and materials, cold soak is just not practical for a small-timer like me - but you, Grapeman, should do what you need to do to work your magic and make something out of nothing! Taking the results of a poor harvest and making a commercially viable product is no small feat!

For what it is worth, I always cold soak my chardonnay. This is to remove as much of the pulp and tannic debris before fermentation begins.

A lot of folks will disagree with me, but i find the use of nobel gas a complete waste of time and money (unless the holding tank is completely pressure sealed). as long as you keep the temperature down around 45 degrees (or colder for that matter), I do not think you should have any problems.

Bartman, let's just say that the two of us are from two different areas and believe it or not, I use no special equipment and do not start out with nothing. We may not have vinifera grapes here, but they are not of inferior quality-just different. Some years are better than others. You are from Texas where the climate is hot and I bet you buy in most of the grapes, juice or kits. The original poster is from New Jersey (not far from here at all and not that much warmer)and was simply asking about if additional inert gas was needed or if just sulfite and colder must temperatures were enough.

The beauty of a forum is that someone can ask a question and get multiple opinions and then they can make their own decision like he seems to when he says "usually the consistent cold temps and sulfite are enough to keep them away. And with many things in life, a cold soak is a balance of risk and reward".

I agree with Rich. We have thousands of members from all over, different regions, different climates, different grapes.

There is no one right way to make wine - each varietal has to be done differently to get the right balance to make a good wine.

Let's not derail this thread from the original question at hand.

s0615353 - if your wine has the right SO2 additions - i don't see the need for the inert gas to be added. Your cold soaking should not be that long 24-48 hours - then you are off to fermentation where the CO2 produced will create a barrier so O2 won't make its way into the must...

Could not agree more folks!

There are as many different ways to make wine as there are tastes in wine. Everything on posted this forum site is simply expressed opinions. It is a well understood rule that no-one has the right to "put down" another for their preferred method..


(That is, unless they use welches)

JohnT said:

Could not agree more folks!

There are as many different ways to make wine as there are tastes in wine. Everything on posted this forum site is simply expressed opinions. It is a well understood rule that no-one has the right to "put down" another for their preferred method..


(That is, unless they use welches)

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JohnT, I'm gonna talk to your wife and tell her you want to be buried with a bottle of Welch's Grape wine wrapped in your arms.

Around these parts it is simply referred to as "The Grape"