RJ Spagnols Kit #3: Super Tuscan, first skins kit

lilvixen · Jul 3, 2016

I kicked off my third kit tonight: RJS En Primeur Super Tuscan. This is my first skins kit, and wow, they're messy! I sanitized a bowl, wrapped the mesh bag over the edges, and squished the skins into it. I also put the oak into the mesh bag, since I had such issues with racking the oak in my second kit. I ordered a racking cane filter, but it hasn't come in yet.

Must temp: 76*
OG before skins: 1.092 (without correction)
OG 1 hour after skins: 1.110 (without correction)

Two packages of oak, unknown size and type. 2.5 kg Genuwine grape skins. Attempting my first yeast swap of BM4x4 instead of EC-1118.

The juice bag opening wasn't aligned with the box supports, and try as I might, I couldn't get it to align or stretch to the box, so I ended up muscling the juice bag directly into the bucket. 16L of juice is a lot of juice (and heavy!) compared to the 10-12L of my first two kits.

richmke · Jul 3, 2016

lilvixen said:
This is my first skins kit, and wow, they're messy! I sanitized a bowl, wrapped the mesh bag over the edges, and squished the skins into it.

I use a pot. the shape works better for me than a bowl.

I also put the oak into the mesh bag

If it is oak splinters, it makes it hard to squeeze the bag when you are done with primary fermentation. the splinters poke your hand.

The juice bag opening wasn't aligned with the box supports ...

I use a Small Auto Siphon. It fits into the hole. Much easier than trying to lift and pour the bag.

In your pic, there doesn't seem to be much space left in your fermentor. I suggest next time:

Right after reconstituting to 6 gallons, but before adding yeast, oak, and skins: Remove 1 gallon to a sanitized jug. Store in the fridge.
On day 4, add back 1/2 of the jug
On day 5, add back the remainder

That gives you 1 more gallon of head space for foaming. by day 4, the risk of excessive foaming is pretty much done. The reason for 1/2 gallon additions is: Minimize thermal shock to the yeast, and minimize foaming due to the new addition.

Rocky · Jul 3, 2016

With the mesh bag, I do much the same as Richmke. I stretch the bag over a large pot and secure it with a large rubber band. Getting all of the grape skins out of the bag is a trick but I squeeze what I can out and then add some of the re-constituting water to the bag, shake it and pour the rest out. I then add the bag, including the oak, and the liquid that has flowed through the bag in the bottom of the pot. I figure that I will need to add a total of 7 liters of water including the 1 or 2 for the bentonite. Before adding the total amount of water, I check the SG to see where it is before adding the balance. I normally find that the SG will increase about 0.006-0.008 due to the influence of the grape pack.

Incidentally, and not to nit pick, your hydrometer seems to be reading 1.102 in the picture and it does not appear that fermentation has begun. The shot was taken after the addition of the grape skins. Did you get the SG 1.110 reading later? I only mention this because your increase due to the grape pack would be 0.018 which is at least twice as high as I typically have seen. Are you confident in your readings?

Good luck with this kit. You are going to love it.

lilvixen · Jul 3, 2016

Thanks guys!

@Rocky, you're right, the hydrometer does say 1.102. I'll update my notes. I saw the range in the instructions say 1.110, and mixed up the actual interval value between ticks.

@richmke, it's a 7.9 gallon bucket, do they make bigger ones? I haven't heard of reserving some juice except when using a smaller bucket.

I'll try the pot for the skins next time, and I'll squeeze this bag carefully to avoid splinters. As of last night, the skins and oak seemed to be on opposite ends of the bag, so I may luck out a bit.

I don't have a small autosiphon, but I'll add that to my wish list before starting another big kit. That seems way easier than muscling it.

dcbrown73 · Jul 3, 2016

I use the handled bowl that comes with my Kitchenaid mixer.

richmke · Jul 3, 2016

lilvixen said:
@richmke, it's a 7.9 gallon bucket, do they make bigger ones?

Not that I know of that are advertised for that purpose. Some people use a 10 gallon can from Lowes.

I haven't heard of reserving some juice except when using a smaller bucket.

Same concept. No reason you can't use it with larger buckets.

Note: The juice is 6 gallons. For kits without skins, the 7.9 gallon will work (almost 2 gallons of head space). The skins take up another gallon (roughly), so that is about 7 gallons. That only leaves 1 gallon for headspace. You risk trouble with that little head space.

Suggestion: Stir 2-3 times a day. The more CO2 you can release, the less likely it will blow off when you are not around. It has the added benefit of more frequent sinking of the skins.

lilvixen · Jul 3, 2016

K, I'll stir it a few times a day. I have the bucket under lid and airlock to keep it safe from pets and their hair, and I have the bucket in a tupperware on a dolly, so I can catch any messes. When I came home this afternoon, the airlock is tinted a lovely shade of wine colored water. I haven't popped the lid yet to stir it - I'm prepping for a family potluck today - but I'll do it before I head over to the family's.

Thanks for the advice, I'll take all the help and sage wisdom and experience I can get!

richmke · Jul 3, 2016

lilvixen said:
I have the bucket under lid and airlock ... and I have the bucket in a tupperware on a dolly, so I can catch any messes.

FYI: If you have a blowoff (volcano, or what have you), it could forceably push out the airlock, blow off the airlock, and/or blow off the lid.

If the airlock or lid is blown off, you could have a mess on your walls/ceiling.

Note: Colored water in the airlock is a sign that the foam is reaching the lid.

I would have the lid on loose. The foam could push the lid (and ooze down the side of the bucket, but it won't blow the lid off.

lilvixen · Jul 3, 2016

Whoa!! Good to know. Unfortunately with a large dog, curious cats, and summer shedding, I don't trust leaving the lid loose.

I just opened it up, and there wasn't much foam on the must, and no foam on the lid. I think the airlock was a little too deep and the skins bag ended up underneath it. I gave it a gentle stir, pushed down the skins bag a few times, cleaned and sanitized the airlock, moved the skins bag opposite the airlock, and set the airlock just deep enough in the grommet to hold.

Must temp: 76*
SG: ~1.104 (the bubbles make it hard to tell for sure, but it's more than one tick below 1.100)

If I hadn't seen all the other pictures on other threads, I wouldn't think to take photos along the way, but it's already proven valuable, since reading the hydrometer hasn't become second nature yet.

richmke · Jul 3, 2016

FYI: The highest risk of a volcano is 48-72 hours after pitching the yeast.

lilvixen · Jul 3, 2016

Point taken. I cracked the lid on the side nearest to the wall where there's the least chance of pet disturbance.

lilvixen · Jul 4, 2016

@rickmke, thank you for your words of warning: cracking the lid was smart!

The must is hissy and fizzy like crazy this morning, there's debris on the lid, and it foamed up when I gave it a stir.

Must temp: 80* (nearly 10* above room temp)
SG: 1.082

It smells so good! I'm excited about this one!

lilvixen · Jul 6, 2016

We're down to 1.040 tonight. I added Fermaid-K, which I had planned to do around 1.070, but I didn't have time to check it between yesterday morning and tonight. With its current fermentation speed, I may need to rack it to secondary tomorrow night - the instructions say 1.020 or less. If it drops much below 1.020 in the next 24 hours, I may let it go to dry in primary and rack it this weekend. I think I sent kit #2 into yeast shock by moving it at ~1.000, and I don't want to repeat that with this kit.

DoctorCAD · Jul 6, 2016

Why the Fermaid???

Kits don't need extra nutrition added.

I will be starting that same kit next week, going to see if I can find some BM 4X4 or some RC-212 at a wine store over the weekend.

wineforfun · Jul 6, 2016

Ok, here is my .02. Seems like a lot going on here for a kit.

a) I always ferment my 6 gal. kits w/skins in a 7.9gal. primary with no issue. Yes it can be tight, but never had any issues.
b) I never have a lid and airlock on my primary, so no issue of "blowup". There is no need to do this at this stage of the game.
c) Just have your SO or someone else hold the muslin bag over the primary while you dump the skin containers in.
d) Not following the "line up with supports" comment with the juice bag. I just take the bag from the box and dump it in the primary.
e) As DoctorCAD stated, no need to add extra nutrients.
f) I always rack mine from primary to secondary around the 1.010 mark, give or take, with no issues. I let it finish dry in the secondary.

AZMDTed · Jul 6, 2016

I started this kit on Monday. I pitched some BM 4x4 about 3 hours before I put in the kit EC-1118. The must was at 77 at the time. It was showing signs first thing yesterday morning, by the afternoon I had a half inch of foam. This morning I had a good two inches of foam. Both BM 4X4 and EC-1118 are listed as low foaming. Perhaps in combination they take off. Either way, it's well under way and smelling good.

Off topic, but I asked the WineExpert tech rep about BM 4X4 and she said that they had not tested it in their kits yet. But she encouraged me to go ahead and throw it in along with the kit supplied yeast. Maybe in the future for my reds I'll give BM 4X4 a day or two head start before I toss in the kit yeast. Should be the best of both worlds.

lilvixen · Jul 6, 2016

@AZMDTed, I look forward to hearing how yours comes out with the two yeasts at the same time.

--
I added Fermaid because I swapped the original kit yeast (EC-1118) for BM4x4, which has a higher nutrient requirement than what the kit was developed for. From other threads, it appears that some have been able to do a straight yeast swap with no problem, but that a bit of nutrient wouldn't hurt, even if the yeast doesn't use it - although too much could affect flavor.

As I mentioned previously, I have pets and live in a dry, dusty area, so fermenting without a lid is not a risk I'm willing to take. For this and future kits, however, I will crack the back of the lid and drape with a towel to allow for carbon dioxide dissipation and necessary oxygen for the yeast, so I don't stress the yeast like I did with my first kit. Though, I also didn't stir that first kit, since the instructions didn't say to, and I was being a good first-timer and following instructions.

This is still new to me, so I'm learning by thread reading, google searching, and experience. The one thing I've definitely learned is that everyone has their own method, and it works till it doesn't. I'll get there.

Tnuscan · Jul 6, 2016

lilvixen said:
@AZMDTed, I look forward to hearing how yours comes out with the two yeasts at the same time.

--
I added Fermaid because I swapped the original kit yeast (EC-1118) for BM4x4, which has a higher nutrient requirement than what the kit was developed for. From other threads, it appears that some have been able to do a straight yeast swap with no problem, but that a bit of nutrient wouldn't hurt, even if the yeast doesn't use it - although too much could affect flavor.

As I mentioned previously, I have pets and live in a dry, dusty area, so fermenting without a lid is not a risk I'm willing to take. For this and future kits, however, I will crack the back of the lid and drape with a towel to allow for carbon dioxide dissipation and necessary oxygen for the yeast, so I don't stress the yeast like I did with my first kit. Though, I also didn't stir that first kit, since the instructions didn't say to, and I was being a good first-timer and following instructions.

This is still new to me, so I'm learning by thread reading, google searching, and experience. The one thing I've definitely learned is that everyone has their own method, and it works till it doesn't. I'll get there.

I use clear plastic shower caps extra large from Wal-Mart, at times (summer mths), I may use large paint strainers with a couple large rubber bands ,or like you, I may lay a lid on loose. Gnats are my only fear, my dog is trained to stay away, and of course everyone knows you don't train a Cat, they train you. like you say "everyone has their own method".

Johnd · Jul 6, 2016

AZMDTed said:
I started this kit on Monday. I pitched some BM 4x4 about 3 hours before I put in the kit EC-1118. The must was at 77 at the time. It was showing signs first thing yesterday morning, by the afternoon I had a half inch of foam. This morning I had a good two inches of foam. Both BM 4X4 and EC-1118 are listed as low foaming. Perhaps in combination they take off. Either way, it's well under way and smelling good.

Off topic, but I asked the WineExpert tech rep about BM 4X4 and she said that they had not tested it in their kits yet. But she encouraged me to go ahead and throw it in along with the kit supplied yeast. Maybe in the future for my reds I'll give BM 4X4 a day or two head start before I toss in the kit yeast. Should be the best of both worlds.

I've used BM 4x4 on the last 10 or 12 kits I've done, straight swap, no other yeast, put the 1118 in the fridge. On the first few, I was adding 1/2 the recommended dose of Fermaid K, just in case it needed a little nutrient boost, after that, just went without it and had no issues. I like the BM 4x4 very much and it's always done the job without issues.

DoctorCAD · Jul 6, 2016

What's wrong with a little pet hair in your must? That's my secret ingredient.

RJ Spagnols Kit #3: Super Tuscan, first skins kit

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