RJ Spagnols Unacceptable kit odor in all RJS and WE

Redbird1 said:

I don't think the derogatory use of terms like connoisseur and "supposedly experienced" are necessary to further the discussion. Nor is the insinuation that people are just in denial and don't care that their wine tastes bad and that you've come to open their eyes to the light. It should not be surprising that different people have different experiences, especially when it comes to wine. Tnuscan has a very constructive post going about the topic that would be a good read.

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Then why bring it up again. This post is about kit wines having bad smell and flavor that as a matter of fact people besides me detect. I intend to start another thread and ask everyone else to speak up if they experience the same out comes. I've invested a good chunk of cash into this hobby, so did others. Sounds like in most cases people closely follow provided instructions and shouldn't necessarily be blamed for a wine that is just not as expected or simply bad. And yes, there are both connoisseurs, pros and people with experience. Not sure why you're having a problem with usingredients this in the discussion.

You are using the terms, IMO, in a derogatory manner. I don't think it is necessary and thought that mentioning it would encourage you to be more constructive. From your very first post "If you already make your kit wines, don't promote them connoiseurs. Lets not fool ourselves. Kit wines will never equal quality commercial wines."

Here is an example of a constructive thread on the topic.

It is entirely possible that at some point we learn that genetics are involved...along the lines of cilantro tasting like soap to some people.

I love cilantro, btw.

Stressbaby said:

It is entirely possible that at some point we learn that genetics are involved...along the lines of cilantro tasting like soap to some people.

I love cilantro, btw.

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Cilantro is good as long as it's not the most powerful flavor in the dish.

Not sure of the soap reference. Maybe it has to do with it maybe tasting like lye?

dcbrown73 said:

So far I've only dived (or dove if you prefer) in Grand Cayman. I plan to expand my new hobby to more locations.

As for the animals, it was a crazy experience. Turtles way larger than me would just swim right by me looking at me as they passed as if we passed each other on the street. Big ugly fish that were almost terrifyingly large watching you from a distance. I can't recall the name of the fish, but he was about 6' long and 4' tall with a kind of a pug nose.

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Really cool but off subject

Dans said:

I've closely followed the provided instructions to get optimal results. Addition of malolactic bacteria was not something the manufacturers suggested nor mentioned as far as I know . Perhaps I should have experimented with it after I started noticing the issue. The dry fruit wines I have made prior to kit wines didn't have that problem. Before I got into kit wines I was assured by few supposedly experienced wine makers that kits like Lodi 11 will certainly beat Mondavi's Private Selection (not my favorite, used the name for comparison purposes). The result was very disappointing.

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Sorry my post was not clear. Geranium is the aroma you would experience if you performed MLF on a wine that contained potassium sorbate.

Looks like some of us should join biology or linguistics forums.
I have had really bad results with kit red wines. Some responders agreed that kit wines are not as good as wines made with fresh grapes. Most think that kit wines are as good or better than commercial wines. Interesting. Personally I would discourage newbies from making kit wines. It's fun but if you do grapes instead the results will be much more rewarding. Kit wine manufacturers should go back to the drawing board. Kits are overrated (I am allowed to repeat my self)

Dans said:

Rotatan my favorite so far. Heading off to Curacu in Jan.

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I assume you mean Roatan and Curacao. Been to both, so just keeping them straight.

If you want the ultimate, go to Bora Bora.

wineforfun said:

I assume you mean Roatan and Curacao. Been to both, so just keeping them straight.

If you want the ultimate, go to Bora Bora.

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Damn, I misspelled both names. My bad. Been thinking about French Polynesia.

As far as your kit comments, I would only agree with the lower end kits. I just did a Fontana that yes, is in the Yellowtail(not that Yellowtail is that bad for it's price point) realm.
Now, my RJS Super Tuscan and Australian Cab. are heads above any Yellowtail wine.
Do they have what some describe as "kit taste"? Yes, at times they do, but again, they are far superior to Yellowtail or any of those low end wines.
And I don't expect them to taste like a $20 -$30 bottle. My higher end kits I compare to a good $12 - $15 bottle.

Dans said:

Damn, I misspelled both names. My bad. Been thinking about French Polynesia.

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No worries, I am a "wordsmith" by trade.

Highly recommend it if you can make it.

wineforfun said:

As far as your kit comments, I would only agree with the lower end kits. I just did a Fontana that yes, is in the Yellowtail(not that Yellowtail is that bad for it's price point) realm.
Now, my RJS Super Tuscan and Australian Cab. are heads above any Yellowtail wine.
Do they have what some describe as "kit taste"? Yes, at times they do, but again, they are far superior to Yellowtail or any of those low end wines.
And I don't expect them to taste like a $20 -$30 bottle. My higher end kits I compare to a good $12 - $15 bottle.

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I wish I could say the same. Thanks though.

dcbrown73 said:

Cilantro is good as long as it's not the most powerful flavor in the dish.

Not sure of the soap reference. Maybe it has to do with it maybe tasting like lye?

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My wife would dope dishes with cilantro to the point I refused to eat it because it tasted like SOAP. Like using so much in hot sauce it would turn green. She didn't taste soap at all...to her it was just "fresh".

I find some merit in this "genetics" line of thought. Different people taste things differently....and I have noticed, at different times in their lives. Dad had a great sense of taste...I used to have him taste test my sausage and 20 years ago he could just nail it dead on. Now, it seems like his tastes have blunted...salty bland or hot...everything has to be WAY over the top for him to tell a difference now.

I can smell blood and gut. Found more than a few deer by getting downwind and using my nose...that smell turns into a taste in my mouth, I am getting close. My hunting buddy used to say I was nuts...but I always found his deer.
Frankly, I am curious as to what this "kit smell" smells like.

I agree that one of faults I find with kits is the lack of nose, yet they still taste good to me. But, I have also found that just because a commercial wine has a good nose, it does not always taste good to me.

A news show the other day did a story about boxed vs bottled wines...mixed group of tasters...the majority could not tell the difference...in fact most WOULD taste a difference when comparing the exact same wine to itself. All were shocked to find they actually liked the much cheaper boxed wines...the snob factor. Put it in a nice bottle and it was better until they found it it was all the same. A similar blind test results would be very interesting.

I suspect DANS and few others may actually have a better sense of smell/taste than most of us here. Since I really like this hobby and making kits, I view that as a good news for me, bad news for DANS kinda deal!

Mismost said:

My wife would dope dishes with cilantro to the point I refused to eat it because it tasted like SOAP. Like using so much in hot sauce it would turn green. She didn't taste soap at all...to her it was just "fresh".

I find some merit in this "genetics" line of thought. Different people taste things differently....and I have noticed, at different times in their lives. Dad had a great sense of taste...I used to have him taste test my sausage and 20 years ago he could just nail it dead on. Now, it seems like his tastes have blunted...salty bland or hot...everything has to be WAY over the top for him to tell a difference now.

I can smell blood and gut. Found more than a few deer by getting downwind and using my nose...that smell turns into a taste in my mouth, I am getting close. My hunting buddy used to say I was nuts...but I always found his deer.
Frankly, I am curious as to what this "kit smell" smells like.

I agree that one of faults I find with kits is the lack of nose, yet they still taste good to me. But, I have also found that just because a commercial wine has a good nose, it does not always taste good to me.

A news show the other day did a story about boxed vs bottled wines...mixed group of tasters...the majority could not tell the difference...in fact most WOULD taste a difference when comparing the exact same wine to itself. All were shocked to find they actually liked the much cheaper boxed wines...the snob factor. Put it in a nice bottle and it was better until they found it it was all the same. A similar blind test results would be very interesting.

I suspect DANS and few others may actually have a better sense of smell/taste than most of us here. Since I really like this hobby and making kits, I view that as a good news for me, bad news for DANS kinda deal!

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Well, thanks for comforting me. I gotta start getting more people to taste my wines. Would the people have good sense of smell? Be honest? Dishonest perhaps? Most of my friends loved it but they like Carlo Rossi as well.... By the way I don't smell that in non kit wines. Including the once I've made

Dans said:

Looks like some of us should join biology or linguistics forums.
I have had really bad results with kit red wines. Some responders agreed that kit wines are not as good as wines made with fresh grapes. Most think that kit wines are as good or better than commercial wines. Interesting. Personally I would discourage newbies from making kit wines. It's fun but if you do grapes instead the results will be much more rewarding. Kit wine manufacturers should go back to the drawing board. Kits are overrated (I am allowed to repeat my self)

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Dans, you have not only entertained me but also gave me a good laugh. I thank you. I remember a thread from about a 18 months ago about how kit wine should not allowed in the same competitive category as wine made from fresh grapes because kit wines are so much better and had a competitive advantage. It just goes to show that some Bozo will b***h about anything.

Mismost said:

I suspect DANS and few others may actually have a better sense of smell/taste than most of us here.

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Let me be clear, with the cilantro analogy, I did not mean to imply anyone's sense of taste or smell was better. I meant to suggest that it was different, which might be based on age, prior experience, sensory history, neural circuitry, genetics, whatever.

The failure to appreciate the difference is the reason this thread has rubbed people the wrong way.

When I was first trying wines a long time ago. They pretty much all tasted the same, but half of that was probably because I wasn't about to drop a few extra dollars to try something else. Basically, I wasn't going to spend over $12 on a bottle when I could get a 12 pack of beer for $6.99.

One day, I went out to dinner with a co-worker and he said I should try this wine and I did. It had a very peppery taste to it. (I love pepper) That was my first waking moment in wine, but I still wasn't a big wine drinker. I tried other wines and found some where better than others, but I still limited myself to sub $18.

Then a little over a year ago, (probably a year ago August) I had a sommelier pair a wine with the dinner I had chosen. The wine was good, the food was better, but the combination blew my socks off.

Prior to that day, I may have tried 30-40 different wines. (some same wine different vintage) Since that day, I've probably purchased over 250 bottles of wines (probably 100-120 different label/vintages with many still in my cellar) and tried many more than that from restaurants, my monthly wine tasting events (usually around 10 different wines), and gifts from friends.

From my view, there are different types of wine drinkers. (I don't consider this view fact, just what I've seen) Those that occasionally drink wine, those that love drinking wine, and those that just love wine itself.

Occasional wine drinkers usually don't have as keen a sense of taste to wines. It's just a beverage to enjoy with their meal or something.

People that love just drinking wine, tend to limit their consumption to specific types of wine. (red/white/cab/merlot,etc)

I find that wine lovers while they can have types of wine they do not care for, are always open to try a new one even if it isn't in their wheel-house.

I usually buy my wines in pairs of two. One to try and one to share if I really like it. There aren't too many wines I buy more than once, though sometimes you just want to relax and not examine the wine. Just enjoy it. For those, when I find a great wine that isn't really expensive. I will keep extra on hand for those times.

I'm hoping, that my winemaking will replace buying those types of wines and I will just continue my hobby of trying every wine I possibly can that isn't already known to be terrible.

Excellent article, then discussion, from Winemaker's Academy on this very topic:
http://winemakersacademy.com/potassium-sorbate-wine-making/

Elizajean said:

Excellent article, then discussion, from Winemaker's Academy on this very topic:
http://winemakersacademy.com/potassium-sorbate-wine-making/

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Good article. I'm just shocked that kit wine manufacturers include K-sorbate in the kit knowing that it can create potential flows.

Dans said:

Good article. I'm just shocked that kit wine manufacturers include K-sorbate in the kit knowing that it can create potential flows.

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From what I gathered (keeping in mind I have only made one batch so far) it's included to save novice wine makers from making a mistake and having additional fermentation happen. I don't think I will use it in my next batch, but I only like dry white wines, so there may not be as much of an issue. By the way, that site is an excellent resource.