making wine the old-fashioned way

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esdubyajay

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Hi. I am new to wine making and to this forum.

I live in Turkey and I am unable to find many of the commerically available sets/products for wine making here. But we have so many grapes this year that I figured it was time to learn to make wine, even if it is the old-fashioned way!

I have collected, destemmed and crushed my grapes. I stir it each day to get the skins back into the mixture. It has been fermenting for 6 days so far. I did not add any yeast, sugar, or water. It seems to be fermenting well, but I don't know how to tell when it is ready.

Since I do not have any equipment to measure alcohol content, how can I know when it has fermented long enough? Are there some signs of activity that I should be watching for? I don't want it to turn into vinegar!

Thanks for your help.
 
Without knowing the original sugar content and a hydrometer, it will require an educated guess to know when to begin protecting it from air. What kind of vessel is the wine in at present? What kind of vessel will you use for the secondary fermentation period? Have you noticed a slowing of the fermentation process?

In any case, you are probably at or getting close to the point at which you should make the transfer. I have made a lot of wine from grapes without knowing the sugar content (except by taste) or having the benefit of a hydrometer. I would be happy to help but I need a little more information.
 
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well as long as it keeps making a cap it is fermenting as it gets closer to being done the cap will get where it stirs in easier as there is less of the skins at tops as long as it's foaming when you start to stir then it's working. once it gets to where it not working alot very little foam strain the mixture into another and get off all the skins and most of the sediment. Taste it and see how it tastes, should be getting an alcohol taste in it abit by now.
 
Thank you all for your answers.

Rocky, I wish I knew where to get the equipment to do the measurements locally, but I've decided now is the time to live. I can't always wait for everything to be exactly right, right? Besides, they must have done it this way years ago, at least that's my logic!
My present vessel is a small plastic garbage can. There may only be a few gallons in it. I'll probably use a similar vessel for the secondary fermentation. Is that ok? The fermentation doesn't appear to be slowing. It forms a pretty solid cap each day and there are a lot of bubbles. Should I be listening for a lessening of fizzing? (By the way, I was in Montepulciano for a week this summer and we went to Montalcino where I had some Brunello. Great stuff... I want to move to Italy!)

Sirs, thanks for the tip about the cap. It is still pretty substantial. I'll start paying attention to it more. It certainly smells like it's fermenting, I just don't know when to stop.

Larry, am I really at risk of making vinegar? Is it a fine line that is crossed quickly, or do I have some leeway?

Thanks, again, everyone!
 
if its fermenting good you should be ok it'll let you know when to strain off the solids it will die down to almost nothing in a day or so. One day you'll stir the cap and it'll foam up like normal then net day you go to stir and it'll be like the foam isn't there anymore just a little bit bubbling up thats when it is about ready. If you tranfer it inot another vessel at that time and strain it good then you should be fine to let it sit just cover it good with a cloth and some type of lid that will snap on it somewhat secure if you can't get to a place that has airlocks and such
 
There has to be a way, since winemakers of old did not have hydrometers. Of course they had dad and grandpa to stand over them to show them the correct way.

Wish I knew what type of grape and how fast your natural, native yeast do their work. Problem is, CO2 bubbling up can make you think you are still fermenting, when it is only CO2, so it is difficult to know when fermentation is really finished.

When it becomes time, do you have a way to protect the wine from all oxygen?
Do you have an air lock? If not, you can make one with a sealed top that has a small hole drilled into it. Hook a hose to the hole (seal around the hose and hole well) and the other end of the hose place under the water of a jug or bottle filled with a sanitizing solution like water and kmeta or vodka. make sure this jug is lower than the bottom of your fermenter.

If you can do the above, when the wine has fermented for about 7 to 8 days (about right now), stir the wine; wait about two hours for the gross lees to settle; go ahead and rack wine to this container and add the air lock. (By stirring first and letting it settle, you will be leaving behind the gross lees but taking the yeast with you.) Leave it there for about 15 more days at a nice room temperature. Don't open the container during this time.

Unless the yeast are very slow fermenters, the wine should be dry by then. Now you can taste the wine to determine if it is still sweet. If not sweet, go ahead and rack again to a clean container. You really should have some KMeta to add to the wine at this time to protect it from bacteria and oxidation.
If the wine is still sweet, very gently stir up the yeast from the bottom, replace air lock; wait another week then taste again and repeat as necessary.

Good luck!
 
You will soon be getting to the point at which you must protect the wine from air. You say it is in a small plactic garbage can and that is fine for now. For your secondary fermentation, you must have a vessel that keeps air out of the wine. As you reach the point where fermentation slows appreciably, you will need to transfer it to another vessel in which the wine can be protected. Large glass bottles or jugs will work well as long as they can be fitted with a stopper and an airlock. If you do not have a commercial airlock, you can fashion one with a length of plastic tubing inserted into the cork or stopper and with the other end submerged in a jar of water. Keep the jar of water lower than the bottom of the wine vessel. You will see CO2 bubbles escaping from the tube in the jar. This means that gas is exiting the wine and no air is getting into it. Of course, you must be sure that the end of the tube is always submerged in the water.

I spent a month in Pienza, which is roughly between Montalcino and Montepulciano. Do you remember the name of the Brunello that you had in Montalcino? We went the the vineyard Le Presi and had quite a bit of Brunello. Where did you stay in Montepulciano?
 
Larry, am I really at risk of making vinegar? Is it a fine line that is crossed quickly, or do I have some leeway?

Thanks, again, everyone!

I am not Larry, but if you do not seal up the wine with an air lock, it will oxidize. As it oxidizes, over weeks it will eventually turn to vinegar. Just keep it sealed from air after you rack it from the bucket it is in right now.

Until you are able to properly stabilize and protect with Kmeta, I would plan on drinking the wine within 6 months.
 
Funny! I woke up this morning with the realization that you likely have not pressed your wine, yet, either. You had written you destemmed and crushed your grapes only.

When you get ready to move from primary to secondary you will need to press the grape skins, seeds and remaining stems off. You won't want to take the skins and other such solids to secondary. The juice is what will go into your secondary container under air lock.

Sorry I missed that!
 
You have all been so helpful. Thank you.

I hope I haven't left it fermenting too long. Life has gotten really busy and I have not been able to press and move it to the secondary storage. I stir it each day, however, and it appears to be fermenting. I have tasted it a bit and it doesn't seem to be moving towards vinegar yet. I think I have better press and transfer it tomorrow.

I plan to put it in a glass jar with a rubber seal and clamp top. Will that be ok? Do I still need to rig up an airlock contraption like a couple of you have described? I remember reading somewhere that I need to fill the container close to the top. Perhaps that will take care of the extra air in there?

I have done quite a bit of reading on various websites and manuals, but as a hands-on guy, doing the job is really where the rubber meets the road for me!

Rocky, we stayed at La Terraza di Montepulciano, a delightful pansyon near the top of the old city. I don't recall the Brunello that we drank in Montalcino. My father-in-law is the real wine collector and he took us to his supplier. lol Great fun!

Thanks again for all of your help.
 
I would really recommend an airlock of some sort. Even if you can fashion a rubber tube on the sealed top with its end in a bottle of water. In a sealed container, there is always the danger of too much gas and the container breaking.

When you say "near the top" of the old city of Montepulciano, that is a real climb! We made that climb a couple times and it is not easy for a person my age. There was a large square at the top with a nice restaurant/wine bar in one corner. I recuperated there before starting the descent.
 
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My guess is that most likely the use of the indigenous wild yeast strain which is at work here will not be robust enough to carry the fermentation of these grapes through to complete dryness. There are situations at wineries where there is enough presence of the culture yeast strain they prefer, in the vineyard that they no longer require innoculation of the must, but you do not state the actual source of the grapes, so this might not be a possibility for you.

Anyway - 10 to 12 days on the skins in an active ferment is usually long enough. But as others state, without a hydrometer, its tough to know exactly when primary fermentation is complete.

Another concern would be yeast nutrition. Stressed yeast will begin to produce the dreaded rotten egg smell which is hard to remove from your wine. You need to monitor this closely, and at the slightest hint of SO2, splash rack your wine off of the lees into a clean vessel.

At 10 to 12 days in - I would press, and transfer into your secondary and allow the fermentation to try and complete - if it will at all.

Good luck
 
People have had to improvise for centuries, you may also have to do so.

It is not the recommended way of checking for the presence of sugar, but in your remote location there in Turkey and lack of access to a hydrometer, you can taste the must to determine if there is any sweetness left in the wine.

The wine will also be tart at that point, but looking passed the tartness, once you taste no sweetness at all, leave the wine fermenting for 3 or 4 more days, then rack. Just make sure you have a good taster for sweets!!!

THIS IS NOT THE RECOMMEND WAY! Never use this method unless you have no alternative, as it is not going to be very accurate. If you can't afford a hydrometer, borrow one before trying this!
 
Another concern would be yeast nutrition. Stressed yeast will begin to produce the dreaded rotten egg smell which is hard to remove from your wine. You need to monitor this closely, and at the slightest hint of SO2, splash rack your wine off of the lees into a clean vessel.

BTW - I meant will develop an H2S problem not an SO2 one that I stated above....:d
 
You know I had a friend once that said he never used an airlock, instead he took a normal childs ballon and stretched it over the top. then useing a needle he poked a hole in it, it would let gas out but the hole was too small to let oxygen back in if the balloon started to deflate.

I am also a beginner so I have no idea if this would work at all. This old timer from deep woods mississippi used it all the time, and I have to say his wine was GOOD! But I was 16 and he would sell me a bottle for $4.00 so what did I know about the taste of good wine back then, I also liked the taste of Mad Dog 20/20 back then.
 
you guys are sure teaching me a lot about wine making!

I've read about the balloon method on other websites, maybe I'll try that. I guess what I don't understand is if this is the storage method until racking, or just until there seems to be no gas left? I haven't quite wrapped my mind around all of the steps yet.

I will taste it for remaining sweetness, Robie, and look for that rotten egg smell, Naperwineguy. Thanks for the hints. I think I will be pressing it this evening. I wonder if I can find a 2 liter bottle to use that a balloon would attach to on the top.... I'll let you know how it works!

Thanks again.
 
you guys are sure teaching me a lot about wine making!

I've read about the balloon method on other websites, maybe I'll try that. I guess what I don't understand is if this is the storage method until racking, or just until there seems to be no gas left? I haven't quite wrapped my mind around all of the steps yet.

I will taste it for remaining sweetness, Robie, and look for that rotten egg smell, Naperwineguy. Thanks for the hints. I think I will be pressing it this evening. I wonder if I can find a 2 liter bottle to use that a balloon would attach to on the top.... I'll let you know how it works!

Thanks again.

Yep, as a last resort the balloon will work.
You would use the balloon method once the wine is pressed and racked into a clean container. While the wine is in the primary, there is a lot of CO2 being expelled. That CO2 will protect the wine. Once you press the wine and rack it, there won't be enough CO2 to protect it from oxygen. This is when the balloon should be used.

The balloon would stay on the wine until the wine is either bottled or about 3 months into bulk aging, which ever comes first. If you age more than 3 months, I would completely seal the container of wine after 3 months.

Don't punch the hole when the balloon is full of CO2; do it when it has just a little CO2 in it, so it won't split open (burst).

I know it is a challenge for you, but it is kind of interesting to have to improvise as you are having to do. You really are having to do it "the old-fashioned way". You know they haven't always had Kmeta, glass carboys, air locks and sorbate. Somehow they found a way; you can, too.

Please let us know how things are going for you as the wine progresses.
 
Unfortunately I'm reading this a little too late but I was thinking that during your wait you could have ordered over the net.

It would be interesting to see photos of what you did too.

Good luck, hope this turns out well for you.
 
I did it... and so far so good

Hi eveyrone. I did it and so far it seems to be ok. I used the balloons since that's what I was able to find easily. It didn't make as much as I had hoped, only about 4 liters, but since this is my first time, I am just happy to be learning. I have some white grapes I still haven't picked because they aren't sweet enough yet. I'd like to see what I can do with them, but I think they have to be done without skins, right?

Anyway, I have a few pics I can post. I am afraid I probably didn't use the best techniques, so be gentle if I am a disgrace to winemakers! :) Presently my wine is in 4 one-liter Diet Coke bottles with balloons on the tops. (Un)fortunatley I didn't take a picture of that! There doesn't appear to be much CO2 action going on if any as the balloons are pretty limp. If you understood correctly, I should leave them like that for a few months, then rack the wine?

I have done some reading which seemed to indicated that I need to siphon it a few times prior to the finally racking to get rid of the lees. I used cheese cloth to strain it already but there is still quite a bit already at the bottoms of the bottles. Should I do that once a month for the next 3 momths, then rack it?

Thanks for your suggestions.

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